Friday, March 02, 2007
Stop the rot in the #England undernet irc channel
This will probably get me into trouble, and I may lose my ops for doing it, but I feel strongly enough about the matter, that I am willing to risk that, in an attempt at stopping the ruin of #England.
Many of you may have noticed how fewer and fewer people are joining the channel... not so long ago, you could see 120 - 140 people in the channel at a given time.
You may also recall a time when there was perhaps the odd hour when no-one spoke in the channel, but the rest of the time, it was always lively. Now it is the other way around, and you find yourself sitting around waiting for that odd hour when people speak.
You may have noticed the gradual increase in the number of chatters complaining that people aren't allowed to discuss anything but what the ops say they can talk about.... which isn't much at all, only to be told to shut up, or be kicked and or banned, and then dismissed as whining malcontents and troublemakers.
The thing is... these people have a point, and please note... these aren't people who are complaining about the rules, and they aren't known troublmakers... these are popular and well liked channel regulars, and on occasion, even ops.
Now, let me be absolutely clear here, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the rules of the channel. They cover most, if not all situations in a fair, even handed, and even flexible manner.
The problem is, they aren't being enforced in the spirit that they are intended, and indeed, in many cases, some rules that don't even exist are being enforced.
Let me give you some examples....
No football chat, religious or political discussion.
This is not a rule. The rule states that these topics may be discussed, provided they don't turn into an argument.... but time and again, these topics are prevented, and chatters told they may not discuss them, before more than a line has been said on the subject.
No scripts.
This is not a rule. The actual rule states that auto responders like ping scripts are not permitted. In the rules for ops, which normal chatters do not have access to, it states very clearly that mp3 announcers and away scripts are permitted, provided they are not too obtrusive, and too many people aren't running them at once.
However, what we see on a daily basis is chatters getting warned/kicked/banned for running these scripts, when they are creating no disruption whatsoever.
No swearing.
Yes... this is a rule, and again, in the rules for ops, what words are considered allowable are very well defined, but more and more, we see people beig kicked and banned for using words that are quite clearly on the allowable words list.
Kicks and bans for people being in 'inappropriate' channels.
There is no rule regarding what channels are considered acceptable for people in #england to be in. Provided that person's behaviour in #england is acceptable, what other channels they choose to chat in is no-one's business, and certainly not the ops'.
Every time an op kicks/bans a person for being in an inappropriate channel, they are actually breaking the rules themselves, as it is very clearly stated that chatters may only ever be kicked/banned if they break a rule.
No clones.
This is not a rule.
Now while it is certainly wise to prevent masses of clones from attacking the channel, ops rules state quite clearly that a limited number of clones are permitted. All too often though, we see chatters kicked/banned, for having a clone in the channel. Indeed, if I weren't an op, chances are ^Susannah and myself would probably have been banned by now too, as we both have the same IP, even though we're clearly different people.
The ability of chatters to question an op in private about their ban, if they have been banned, is a requirement of the rules... though as many will be aware, certain scipts prevent this, and the use of such scripts by ops is not dealt with in the manner required by the channel rules. Ops simply should not run such scripts.
Being harrassed by the people you have banned is part and parcel of being an op. It goes with the job. If an op isn't able to take the heat, they simply should not be an op... not feel they are above the channel rules and be allowed to block all incoming messages.
Inappropraite nicks
There are no rules regarding inappropriate nicks.
Now clearly, a little common sense is needed here, as gratuitiously offensive nicks, with explicit sexual references are obviously not welcome... but where to draw the line?
We see people with nicks like dirtygirl, muslimman, gayguy and blackboy being kicked/banned. What are we now, a bunch of homophobic, racist, anti-religious personal hygene fanatics?
Speak english.
Yes, this is a rule... however, one word greetings in other languagesare permitted by the rules. Yet how often do we see people kicked and banned for doing this? Every day.
Kick first, then ban.
That is a rule. It is required by the ops rules. If a person has been warned once about their behaviour, they may be kicked without ever being given another warning, but they may not be instantly banned, unless they are flooding/spamming. These are the rules. As everyone can see for themselves though... these rules are not being followed. Instant bans have become the norm, and it's truly a shame.
The problem with all of this is not just that the rules are being misrepresented, or distorted, but the effect it has on the channel, and more specifically, on newcomers.
Put yourself in the place of a person who's joined the channel for the first time. They see all of this and think "Woah! This place is harsh... I'm not staying."... and they leave, or simply don't talk. Hey presto... dead channel.
Now... we all know that a lot of people blame one particular person for what's gone wrong with #england, but really, it isn't as simple as that.
We all see people jumping up and down screaming so and so is a bitch and a nazi, just before they quite rightly get banned, but seriously, this problem is not coming from just one place... it's more of an erosion of the spirit of the rules, and worse, complete ignorance on the part of several or even many ops, of what the actual rules are. And no... I do not consider myself exempt from this either. I've looked at my own conduct as an op, and found it wanting on occasion.
How this has come about though, is by the bar that is used to measure what is acceptable conduct being set extremely high, by a very small minority of ops... and over time, the rest of the ops come to see this as the accepted norm. So now extreme intollerance is being practiced and not challenged.
Now here is the serious point... while it is very easy to still point the finger at specific ops, the real responsibility to see that ops conduct themselves in an appropriate manner lies with the channel owner, and the channel managers. That they can see the daily complaints from chatters and dismiss them out of hand, or recieve messages/emails from ops, and completely ignore them, speaks volumes.
The running of the channel comes from the top down, not the bottom up, so really, that's where people should be looking.
What can be done about this?
The official line regarding complaints about ops is to report your grievances to either Wilm, or the channel managers, Nikina and Brunoj.
I personally have complained to Wilm, and upon delivering the requested examples, have been completely ignored.
Have I complained to the managers? No, quite simply because I have no faith in their ability or willingness to do the right thing. As the saying goes... power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
What I will say is this... to the ops... please, look at what you are doing, read the channel rules, and more importantly, the ops rules... all of them, and then ask yourself exactly why the channel is going to hell. Are you following all of those rules? Are you enforcing rules that, though they may suit your purposes, don't actually exist?
Think about it for a while.
I know this doesn't apply to all of you, and I know some of you will be upset or offended by me writing this post, and for that, I am sorry, but my concern here is for the channel, not the egos of the ops.
To the chatters I say this... don't jump up and down screaming in the channel about how unfairly you are being treated. Many of us know this to be true already, but complaining openly will only get you banned, as sure as an op complaining openly will be deopped.
Believe me, just like so many chatters who are afraid to speak, for fear of being banned... there is a significant number of ops who are unhappy, but who are also afraid to speak, out for fear of being deopped.
What you need to do is send an email to Wilm at helper[at]silverlink.net and express your concerns in a clear and sober manner.
Yes, he completely ignored my complaint on the matter, as he has others', but his concern is for the majority, so he is not going to respond to just one or two people who are unhappy. That's why ultimately, apart from the ops themselves, the people who can do the most good are you, the chatters.
But you must act... and yes, I mean you, reading this page. Are you unhappy with the channel? Then do something about it and don't just rely on someone else to fix things, or nothing will ever be done.
Do nothing and the channel will become a pitiful little room where the only people left talking will be eastern europeans practicing their english, and a bunch of pet lovers discussing the weather. Everyone else will have either left, or just be lurking and chatting in private.
Finally, I would ask you, whoever you are.. channel op, regular chatter, or whoever... pass this url on to your friends in the channel. This page will do no good whatsoever if no-one sees it.
Comments can be left below, and are welcome, but please keep them civil.
Update
Many thanks to all who have participated here.
The latest news is, Wilm has read this page, respects the opinions voiced, and intends to deal with the situation in a positive manner.
This is very good news :D
Labels: chatrooms
Steve 4:59 AM [+]
Comments:
that's what i'm tried to tell u guys before,but am scare i'll get banned,so i dont dare to go more further,benway,yes'u're right,#england has become even worse nowadays
Very well said. This is a last ditch effort to bring the channel back to the fun place it was 10 years ago, with everyone laughing and enjoying each other, and losing sleep because we couldn't tear ourselves away from the fun.
Thank you for taking the initiative and time to make very valid points.
kaite
Thank you for taking the initiative and time to make very valid points.
kaite
Well said... If I wasnt so lazy at times, thats pretty much what I would have said somewhere on my site... Its right though, in the last 18 months the channel has shrunk in user count and has nearly dried up with chatter. Rules, we do have to have them - but they need to be flexible, sometimes the 'way' something is said can be fun or threatening... Its reading the difference, not a catch-all YOU ARE BANNED... Some people are more tolerant than others and the views of others might not be yours... Shrug it off, we are a "world" channel... England as a country is known for its sense of humour.. let that rise to the fore - not slap someone down because it offends YOU. In some instances I am guilty of 'shoot first' opping, but its a judgement call... whereby you just 'know' the protocol of warn.kick,ban isn't gonna work...
I certainly think the ops should all be shooting in the same direction, not freelance killers hidng behind THEIR perceived set of rules, standards and 'morals'...
OBJECTIVE: fun chat
METHOD: tolerance
If I dont like something in channel thats inside my scope of sensibilities... I go go make coffee or something else. Just because I'm not laughing, it doesnt mean that others aren't.
I'm the last person in the world to be Politically Correct and normally (real world) am allowed these views in my country ... but to be told by some gobby tree hugging humourless dork that my views arent valid is little more than Anally extruded bovine waste food matter... We dont live in a Fisher Price world with rose colourd glasses. I'm not advocating Anarchy, just sensibility...
smiffy
I certainly think the ops should all be shooting in the same direction, not freelance killers hidng behind THEIR perceived set of rules, standards and 'morals'...
OBJECTIVE: fun chat
METHOD: tolerance
If I dont like something in channel thats inside my scope of sensibilities... I go go make coffee or something else. Just because I'm not laughing, it doesnt mean that others aren't.
I'm the last person in the world to be Politically Correct and normally (real world) am allowed these views in my country ... but to be told by some gobby tree hugging humourless dork that my views arent valid is little more than Anally extruded bovine waste food matter... We dont live in a Fisher Price world with rose colourd glasses. I'm not advocating Anarchy, just sensibility...
smiffy
i can see why some ops kick ban warn watever for somethings that arent in the rules because like with the scripts, u say if its kept in moderation, but if u let some do it, then you have to let every1 do it and then there will be no talk just all music scripts and such.
as far as inapropriate nicks go there are some offending ones which do need to be dealt with but yes there are ppl with nicks that arent so bad and they dont get a warning,a nd if they do its a 3 second warning and then a kick, that is unfair in my eyes.
as far as the swearin goes, iv found many ops to have their own guidelines for these, and a lot of chatters dont know where they stand on certain words and it causes much confusion and arguing between regulars and ops.
thats my 2 pennys worth anyways, i do like this channel even tho iv had history with some ops, but that is water under the bridge and we get on well now. but i think there needs to be set guidelines for ops to follow and stick to with ops discretion not getting out of hand
as far as inapropriate nicks go there are some offending ones which do need to be dealt with but yes there are ppl with nicks that arent so bad and they dont get a warning,a nd if they do its a 3 second warning and then a kick, that is unfair in my eyes.
as far as the swearin goes, iv found many ops to have their own guidelines for these, and a lot of chatters dont know where they stand on certain words and it causes much confusion and arguing between regulars and ops.
thats my 2 pennys worth anyways, i do like this channel even tho iv had history with some ops, but that is water under the bridge and we get on well now. but i think there needs to be set guidelines for ops to follow and stick to with ops discretion not getting out of hand
I totally agree, of course. But let's face it: this is IRC, not a constitutional democracy. OPs can and do what they like, and that is that. Like any hierarchical structure, it's often a case of "do as I say, not as I do" and IRC channels are no different. But I do hope we can indeed mobilise change in #england for the better.
Because here, everyone gets to participate, and not just the ops.
The matter concerns the chatters, so they should be allowed to express their opinions.
The matter concerns the chatters, so they should be allowed to express their opinions.
Nikina here. Wilm has indeed passed this page on to BrunoJ and I, and I agree - all the points raised are valid and certainly do need acting upon.
People don't seem to have faith in my abilities - I honestly don't know why not - and so complaints rarely come to light for me. In the end, I only ever act upon what I see for myself, and that's not a great deal. Things happening outside of my hours or behind the scenes just don't come to my attention, so I remain ignorant of them, which is why I don't act upon them.
This could, I suppose, be why you and others are not convinced by my ability or willingness; I can only do what I know about.
People don't seem to have faith in my abilities - I honestly don't know why not - and so complaints rarely come to light for me. In the end, I only ever act upon what I see for myself, and that's not a great deal. Things happening outside of my hours or behind the scenes just don't come to my attention, so I remain ignorant of them, which is why I don't act upon them.
This could, I suppose, be why you and others are not convinced by my ability or willingness; I can only do what I know about.
Have to agree with the main text to be honest. I did used to be really active in #england and these days it's rare if i'm actually IN there and even then, even rarer if i'm actually talking.
Naming no names, there are people that i'm never happy with in the channel, the "no clones" rule (or..lack of rule...) has ended up with me being banned when trying to get my WIFE onto IRC on another PC. The hilarious part is that we were BOTH ops at one time! Some people that as far as I can see are actually CAUSING a lot of the fights by arguing back and forth with "you're being stupid", "how?" "you know how!", "i'm not? please tell me how", "shut up or be banned", "i dont understand what i did" *ban*. (Example only - not a quote)
No-one has mentioned the "friends rules" part of it where person A can do something and get banned and person B will get a nice laugh from it. I doubt a *non-regular* entering with "cheinstestes" as a nick would be allowed to stay for more than 2 seconds after seeing "change that nick NOW!" on their screen.
I don't beleive it'll ever really be solved without seriously upsetting someone/some people and a lot of it is probably "friends together".
I did lose a lot of faith in the channel a while ago and without it getting a whole new image and friendly atmosphere..... i can't see me being active in there tbh. :(
Moi 2 peneth!
Naming no names, there are people that i'm never happy with in the channel, the "no clones" rule (or..lack of rule...) has ended up with me being banned when trying to get my WIFE onto IRC on another PC. The hilarious part is that we were BOTH ops at one time! Some people that as far as I can see are actually CAUSING a lot of the fights by arguing back and forth with "you're being stupid", "how?" "you know how!", "i'm not? please tell me how", "shut up or be banned", "i dont understand what i did" *ban*. (Example only - not a quote)
No-one has mentioned the "friends rules" part of it where person A can do something and get banned and person B will get a nice laugh from it. I doubt a *non-regular* entering with "cheinstestes" as a nick would be allowed to stay for more than 2 seconds after seeing "change that nick NOW!" on their screen.
I don't beleive it'll ever really be solved without seriously upsetting someone/some people and a lot of it is probably "friends together".
I did lose a lot of faith in the channel a while ago and without it getting a whole new image and friendly atmosphere..... i can't see me being active in there tbh. :(
Moi 2 peneth!
i need a kind friendly channel. thats not happening. i wont bitch just learn to be kinder,
this isnt no gang thats supposed to make certain people happy about bein old with kids. if u want that try another channel mothers.
this isnt no gang thats supposed to make certain people happy about bein old with kids. if u want that try another channel mothers.
Benway, id like to say welldone for taking this stance. i know u have done a major thing here. id like to say good thinking dude and full respect. is what democracy is all about.i love england and believe some ops need a new tght pattern . not to say they cant be ops jus be more responsible as us ferllow chatters should be.lets make england fun again ...thats all i want:)
Some may remember me from earlier days on the channel...I was an Op (and I'd like to think I was one of the more liked ones). Aside from the fact that I turned my back on the channel and IRC as a whole due to something called real life, I recently came by to visit and noted that the general "air" of the place had become stagnent, sterile, souless and ruled with nazi-like fervour....
Noone should be able to express how they feel (obviously voiced the correct way) and be banned for it. There are some very valid point here, however over the yrs IRC as a whole has changed. most people use msn, the "quality" of new chatters has dropped. I know I do not spend as much time as i should in the channel. but i belive the rules and policys of the channel do need a overhaul to meet what is left of a great chat network.
Cheers
[Pete]
Cheers
[Pete]
No idea what all this is about, but Wilm is always approachable, maybe he has been busy recently but I know whatever the outcome of this it will be fair.
I do agree with some of the rules being looked over though - rules are there to be stuck by, but however should be looked over.
-
Shaun Okeefe
Undernet User-Committee
Webmasters / Promotions
simba@user-com.undernet.org
I do agree with some of the rules being looked over though - rules are there to be stuck by, but however should be looked over.
-
Shaun Okeefe
Undernet User-Committee
Webmasters / Promotions
simba@user-com.undernet.org
Just rid of that fucked-in-the-head, illiterate, head-up-own-arse bitch Aryanna. Live and let live.. Think of what happened to #london and observe exactly the same nazi-communist regime in #england.. Good luck..
Ex-#london OP
Ex-#london OP
Posting anonymously doesn't help the cause, but unfortunately, I believe you are too late to help the cause.
Nothing that was supposed to happen, happened. The owner backed the ops who were ruining place, being the blind, gutless fool that he is.
I quit my ops, and have since quit the channel all together.
Post a Comment
Nothing that was supposed to happen, happened. The owner backed the ops who were ruining place, being the blind, gutless fool that he is.
I quit my ops, and have since quit the channel all together.
The Benway Empire |
 |